Need Some Hand Advice

Xerond · 04-22-2007, 04:26 PM

Alright, I have a hand that happened to me last night that has been haunting me all day, I'm on a seperate computer right now and can't pull up the history so here is my translation.

Low buy 90 player sng on full tilt

4 hands into it.

I'm on the button and the table folds all around to me with Kd 9d

I min raise to maybe pose a quick fold for the blinds.

SB folds, BB calls.

flop: 9 7 5 rainbow.

BB checks. I make a 4x bb bet.

He calls.

Turn: 2

He checks, I bet like 2x the pot (about half my stack) and mind you I have the same starting as him, like 1460 or something.

He waits, then he calls.

River: Qh

He checks. Pot is twice what I have left as a stack. So I'm figuring that the guy is showing no aggresion, this is my first hand on that table, and that he was just waiting on a straight draw, maybe open ended, maybe two pair, maybe a set but didn't push them at all. My read is that he missed a draw.

So I go all-in.

He calls, and shows a 8 6 off, and flopped the straight.

What things did I do wrong on this hand?

EdmondDantes · 04-23-2007, 09:11 AM

First of all, banish the min raise from your poker repertoire. Min-raising gives marginal hands the odds to call and out-flop you.

Second, you're 4 hands into a tournament and you're stealing blinds? I'm all for being aggressive, but early in tournaments guys are more apt to call these button and cut-off raises. I think it's fine to raise K9s here for value, but you need to proceed with caution once the blind calls.

Ok, so you make a 4x bet on the flop. I'm not sure what your blinds are here (10/20?), but I'm thinking the pot's at 90 or so with the pre-flop raise, call and the blinds. I'm fine with the pot-size bet here of 80-90. He calls; I'm thinking he's on a draw or got some piece of the flop at this point.

The turn is where I think you blew yourself up. He checks to you when the blank falls. Pot's 270-300 at this point and you massively over-bet it. Why? If you think he's on a draw, a 2/3 to pot-size bet gets the job done--ruins his drawing odds if he's on a draw and gets value for your hand, without committing your entire stack to the hand. As it is, you fire out 500-600, and he thinks and CALLS (wtf?).

At this point, I'd be done with the hand. (Note: I'd have been done with the hand if he'd have called a more reasonable bet, too) He's not on a draw; he flopped some sort of monster that he's been slow-playing. Guys that are on draws typically call quickly and even the most brain-dead player would realize that your massive over-bet ruined any drawing odds. Again, if he's on the draw, a 2/3 to pot-size bet gets value for your hand, wrecks his odds and doesn't over-commit you to the hand.

When he checks to you on the river, you need to check behind and lick your wounds when he shows the straight. His sick river check certainly looks like he didn't hit anything, but you've been showing aggression throughout; he might think you'll do what you did (i.e. shove) and pick you off. From your perspective, though, you should be thinking "What kind of hand that MISSED can call this bet?" The answer, of course, is "none". I think the only hand that calls your turn bet and your river bet is one that has you smashed.

Short version:

Make a bigger (3x BB) raise pre-flop.
Make a reasonable (2/3 to pot-size) turn bet.
Check behind on the river. A busted draw can't call your river bet.

Just my $.02,

Edmond

Xerond · 04-23-2007, 05:39 PM

Thanks a lot for the input.

EdmondDantes · 04-23-2007, 07:48 PM

No problem. We've all been there. Don't be so worried about guys drawing that you overbet. As long as you're giving them poor odds, you're doing your job. And think hard about that last bet; if the only hand that calls you, beats you, that's a problem.

Keep digging,

Edmond

lakeoffire · 04-26-2007, 02:33 PM

You should have slowed down on the turn because he was still coming for a reason. Min raise= bad

Landlord79 · 07-13-2007, 07:42 PM

Edmond hit it on the head. If you're going to raise pf, make it enough to be felt.
You flopped TPGK so 2/3 to PSB is goot here. Get a call, hmm, let's reevaluate.
Turn, maybe 2/3 again. You get called, all the alarms are going off.
River w/ one pair, ck behind because a worse hand isn't calling you here.

Step 5, kick the dog!!!

afstuddmuffin · 04-04-2008, 12:09 PM

do away with the midraising. the whole purpose of this is to take the pot. if you dont have the nuts, you definately want to make him pay for it. your 4 raise was good.

if it were me, i would have done it in the 1st place if anything. a low pot is better than minraising and giving them odds to take your hand out. you played agressive which is good. but other advice is, usually when someone has the nuts. a lot of times they wont go all in to show you by betting outrageously. they will let you bet first to take your money.

lakong · 04-16-2008, 09:21 AM

I agree with almost everything Ed said. Mini-raise from button is a waste. Make regular bet. On flop, betting is fine, but it's curious that you think of your bet there as a multiple of the BB as opposed to a % of the pot. You should be betting .5 to 1x the pot in that situation.

On the turn you bet too much. Betting 2x the pot accomplishes nothing. That said, once the guy called your bet he is telling you that he has a hand. Just fold to any bet on the river.

04-22-2007, 04:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
Xerond Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Loma Linda, CA Posts: 7	Need Some Hand Advice Alright, I have a hand that happened to me last night that has been haunting me all day, I'm on a seperate computer right now and can't pull up the history so here is my translation. Low buy 90 player sng on full tilt 4 hands into it. I'm on the button and the table folds all around to me with Kd 9d I min raise to maybe pose a quick fold for the blinds. SB folds, BB calls. flop: 9 7 5 rainbow. BB checks. I make a 4x bb bet. He calls. Turn: 2 He checks, I bet like 2x the pot (about half my stack) and mind you I have the same starting as him, like 1460 or something. He waits, then he calls. River: Qh He checks. Pot is twice what I have left as a stack. So I'm figuring that the guy is showing no aggresion, this is my first hand on that table, and that he was just waiting on a straight draw, maybe open ended, maybe two pair, maybe a set but didn't push them at all. My read is that he missed a draw. So I go all-in. He calls, and shows a 8 6 off, and flopped the straight. What things did I do wrong on this hand?

04-26-2007, 02:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
lakeoffire Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 37	Turn You should have slowed down on the turn because he was still coming for a reason. Min raise= bad

04-04-2008, 12:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
afstuddmuffin Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: fort leonard wood, MO Posts: 2	i agree with dantes do away with the midraising. the whole purpose of this is to take the pot. if you dont have the nuts, you definately want to make him pay for it. your 4 raise was good. if it were me, i would have done it in the 1st place if anything. a low pot is better than minraising and giving them odds to take your hand out. you played agressive which is good. but other advice is, usually when someone has the nuts. a lot of times they wont go all in to show you by betting outrageously. they will let you bet first to take your money.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

04-23-2007, 09:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
EdmondDantes Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Formerly, Chateau d'If. Now, at large in California...last seen in Fresno, propping 2/2 NL... Posts: 52	First of all, banish the min raise from your poker repertoire. Min-raising gives marginal hands the odds to call and out-flop you. Second, you're 4 hands into a tournament and you're stealing blinds? I'm all for being aggressive, but early in tournaments guys are more apt to call these button and cut-off raises. I think it's fine to raise K9s here for value, but you need to proceed with caution once the blind calls. Ok, so you make a 4x bet on the flop. I'm not sure what your blinds are here (10/20?), but I'm thinking the pot's at 90 or so with the pre-flop raise, call and the blinds. I'm fine with the pot-size bet here of 80-90. He calls; I'm thinking he's on a draw or got some piece of the flop at this point. The turn is where I think you blew yourself up. He checks to you when the blank falls. Pot's 270-300 at this point and you massively over-bet it. Why? If you think he's on a draw, a 2/3 to pot-size bet gets the job done--ruins his drawing odds if he's on a draw and gets value for your hand, without committing your entire stack to the hand. As it is, you fire out 500-600, and he thinks and CALLS (wtf?). At this point, I'd be done with the hand. (Note: I'd have been done with the hand if he'd have called a more reasonable bet, too) He's not on a draw; he flopped some sort of monster that he's been slow-playing. Guys that are on draws typically call quickly and even the most brain-dead player would realize that your massive over-bet ruined any drawing odds. Again, if he's on the draw, a 2/3 to pot-size bet gets value for your hand, wrecks his odds and doesn't over-commit you to the hand. When he checks to you on the river, you need to check behind and lick your wounds when he shows the straight. His sick river check certainly looks like he didn't hit anything, but you've been showing aggression throughout; he might think you'll do what you did (i.e. shove) and pick you off. From your perspective, though, you should be thinking "What kind of hand that MISSED can call this bet?" The answer, of course, is "none". I think the only hand that calls your turn bet and your river bet is one that has you smashed. Short version: Make a bigger (3x BB) raise pre-flop. Make a reasonable (2/3 to pot-size) turn bet. Check behind on the river. A busted draw can't call your river bet. Just my $.02, Edmond

04-23-2007, 05:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
Xerond Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Loma Linda, CA Posts: 7	Thanks a lot for the input.

04-23-2007, 07:48 PM	#4 (permalink)
EdmondDantes Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Formerly, Chateau d'If. Now, at large in California...last seen in Fresno, propping 2/2 NL... Posts: 52	No problem. We've all been there. Don't be so worried about guys drawing that you overbet. As long as you're giving them poor odds, you're doing your job. And think hard about that last bet; if the only hand that calls you, beats you, that's a problem. Keep digging, Edmond

07-13-2007, 07:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
Landlord79 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Breaking Rocks!!! Posts: 18	Edmond hit it on the head. If you're going to raise pf, make it enough to be felt. You flopped TPGK so 2/3 to PSB is goot here. Get a call, hmm, let's reevaluate. Turn, maybe 2/3 again. You get called, all the alarms are going off. River w/ one pair, ck behind because a worse hand isn't calling you here. Step 5, kick the dog!!!

04-16-2008, 09:21 AM	#8 (permalink)
lakong Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 26	I agree with almost everything Ed said. Mini-raise from button is a waste. Make regular bet. On flop, betting is fine, but it's curious that you think of your bet there as a multiple of the BB as opposed to a % of the pot. You should be betting .5 to 1x the pot in that situation. On the turn you bet too much. Betting 2x the pot accomplishes nothing. That said, once the guy called your bet he is telling you that he has a hand. Just fold to any bet on the river.