I've been thinking a lot lately about the adjustments we need to make to adapt as internet players in the live arenas. I'm not trying to write a definitive guide here, what i'm really interested in is discussion and your thoughts on the issue, so please join in on what you agree/disagree with and what you feel has been omitted.

First, when talking about live play we're going to have to make some generalizations. When refering to the play of live tournaments or live players let's make assumptions:
1. The villains in the hand aren't very well known live players whos game you respect.
2. The villains in the hand aren't well known internet players.
3. The villains in the hand are basically unknown live players or known live pros who play badly.

As i said, it's a fairly cumbersome set of generalizations, but discussing how we would play against other internet pros in a live setting seems somewhat redundant to our discussion of playing them online.

First, some tendencies i've noted in your more standard live players:
1. Early in the tournament they call raises or limp to loosely.
2. They have a weak understanding of pot odds.
3. Their open raising conditions are often too tight.
4. They resteal at a very low frequency.
5. They are concerned with their tournament life.
6. They call raises out of position too lightly and defend their blinds too loosely.
7. They don't understand what kind of actions their stack size (should) limit them to.
8. They tend to play large draws more weak than online players (less big semi bluff raises, more calling.)
9. They tend to bluff less, especially in terms of big multi street ones.
10. They don't think about ranges very well.
11. If they are the type that's capable of adjusting their play, they will often react to a loose aggressive style quicker than in many online tournaments.
12. They don't thin value bet as much as they should.
13. They slow play much much more than online.
14. They (mostly) read all ins for strong, or at least stronger than nominal bets, especially early in a tournament.
15. They may seem highly inconsistent, that is, you'll see some players play very tight/weak for a long time then suddenly do something very loose and spewy almost out of nowhere.
16. They bet and raise for information and don't necessarily have a clear motivation of value bet/bluff bet behind their actions.
17. They may commit a very large % of their stack and fold to more aggression.
18. They percieve a pre flop 3 bet range to be much tighter than it normally is, unless you are very often 3 betting.
19. They may search for tells or visual cues of intent.
20. They make a decesion based on a very specific read.
21. They won't isolate limpers in position nearly as much as they should/could.
22. They squeeze at a much lower frequency.
23. There is basically no such thing is a pre flop 4 bet all in as a bluff in their arsenal.
24. Their shoving ranges on a short stack tends to be much tighter than online.

I'm sure i could come up with some more if i sat around thinking about it for a while, but that seems okay for now. Again, these are some really massive generalizations, but often devoid of a specific read they are the kind of generalizatoins we should be making.

So here's the part i really want to discuss, that is, the kind of adjustments we internet players should be making in the live arena. I feel like at this point in my live experience, i may have done a pretty mediocre job at doing so in some areas. These are the points i'd really like feedback on:

1. I think we should call down tighter: I think live villains are less likely to bluff, especially in multi way pots. When i think back to my live experience and everytime i've tried to make a tough call down, the only one that sticks out that i got right was against a good/aggressive/thinking player on a money bubble (and it was only on one street.) I think it's probably okay to give our villains more credit than we're used to online and take spots that seem like marginal/close call downs and weight them towards folds. I think the kinds of bluffs we should call down are the more obvious ones in pot controlled situations when a draw misses and we've checked on the turn. Live players will still often make the mistake of betting rivers in those kinds of spots.

2. I think we should call in position a bit looser pre flop (when stack appropriate): It seems since many players will play bit more weak/straight forward post flop, as well as slow play and give us more free cards, that i think we can call a bit lighter than normal in position, especially with the decreased chance of being squeezed (though obviously you need to be aware of who's behind you.) Also i think calling a looser range is especially effective since they often won't give you credit many hands in your range if you haven't established that kind of image yet, and they tend to call to many value bets on the river assuming it doesn't get to the stage of all in.

3. I think we should value bet nominal amounts in favor of all in when appropriate: If the all in get's treated with a lot of seriousness, and players aren't often aware of stack size considerations, than i think we might be missing value by shoving in spots where we can make what is a very clear value bet and get a call a ton of the time. If you think the player is very unlikely to adjust to this and start shoving over your bets as a bluff all in (this seems very unlikely with most live players) then betting for value intending to fold to a shove might be the better alternative. Obviously, if all in on the river is only a half pot bet, we should basically never be going the nominal amount.

4. I think we can use plays that have become somewhat out dated online: Such as the stopngo or the squeeze, as live players are mostly expecting this less and few put in enough volume to become overly familiar with these plays.

5. I think we should limp more: Especially behind other limpers, but i also know of two players whos game i really respect (Alan Sass, William Thorrsen, spelling might be wrong) that also do a fair bit of open limping with considerable success. I think we should limp behind limpers looser since it's less likely we get isolated and since people play pretty poorly in limped pots. As far as open limping, that's something i have zero experience with and would love for someone more experienced with it or smarter than me to come in and explain with detail what kind of situations it's good in and why.

6. I think we should increase our 3 bet frequency with antes: That is, moreso than we do online, however there's a catch to this. I think you can increase your 3 betting frequency to a point, but finding the line is very important since eventually live players may just start stationing you much wider. I was talking to a successful Australian live player, David Saab, and he called this the 'vindictiveness factor' which i thought was a good term. Basically, you can pummel your table/the players on your right with reraises for only so long until suddenly they just kind of snap and start spite calling you down very wide.

7. I think we should go absolutely fucking ballistic on the bubble on most tables: Unless your table is packed with pros who don't give a shit about cashing, i really think you can go all out on a live cash and final table bubble, much moreso than you can online. People are normally playing for multiple days to reach these points, and going out at that stage is a pretty gross feeling for most (even plenty of online players when you consider the time investment.) I think you should be willing to break rules in terms of stack sizes needed to 3 bet or open raise (to a reasonable degree), i think you should put people all in with an almost reckless abandon, i think against other deep stacks you should flat call pre flop when a 3 bet isn't appropriate and just make their lives miserable post. I think in most of these situations you can get away with murder. As one WSOP player once told me one off the money bubble "Of course i would of folded my kings if you shoved and had me covered, i didn't come all the way from Alaska just to finish 271st!"

8. I think when we have a tight image we should consider making more big bluffs: Be they multiple street or 3/4 bet type things, i think live players will make some rediculously tight folds if your image isn't too loose or anything. When i think about it, in most online MTT's i very rarely make big or 3 street pure bluffs, and while i certainly don't think we should go crazy with these things i think there's more possibility to make these work in live than online.

9. I wonder about the inverse of the Gigabet dilemma: I'm pretty sold on the idea that in some tournament situations, taking a -EV spot to open up future +EV opportunities can be a good investment. Can the inverse of this be true? If we have a table full of very bad players in a live tournament, should we consider passing on some slight edges for a ton of our stack, since if we lose we miss future opportunties where these players would put their chips in in a much worse spot. I am OBVIOUSLY not talking about being a tournament life nit, or "OH MY GOD YOU HAVE AA FIRST HAND AND 9 GUYS GO ALL IN YOU MUST FOLD!" or anything like that. One example i might give: The $3000 buy in pokernews cup i played recently was an incredibly weak field with a very deep structure. If it's first hand and it folds to SB with me in the BB holding 66 and SB open shoves then flips up AKs, should i consider folding? I think (and i can't prove it, i'm not good enough at math/theory) that might be a fold given the field. Do you think this inverse applies? If so how far does it/can it go?

10. I think we should call short stack all ins tighter until villain proves he's capable of shoving light: People in live just don't seem to shove very light on a short stack, even under 10 BB's with high antes. I can't say how tight we should go, and obviously the villain in the hand is the pertinent detail here, but i do think we should tighten up in this spot.

11. I think we should be really really image conscious: Since you're only getting in like 30 hands an hour in a live tournament everyone can (if they want and bother to) watch most hands pretty accurately. People seem to be a bit less observent in the early stages than mid/late where every pot is so important, but they will often sit around talking about the way other people at the table play and if you play as loose/aggressive as most of us do will eventually just start calling you a lot wider. Image and meta game in live is kind of hard to put into words, but i think adjusting to this factor is really important in dominating the live scene.

12. I think we should do more obvious stuff and take more obvious lines for what we want: Remember the stack a donk line? Guess what, in live it still works. Even dirtier, you can stack a donk by check min raising the turn. Soooooo dirty. I think min raising for free cards on the flop, or min raising for value on any street is way more viable live than online (though i still haven't done it.) I think live villains will think about your hand range less, so doing what might be really obvious online becomes considerably more viable live where they haven't already seen that pattern 10,000 times.


Okay, that's what i have on my mind for now. I'm really keen to get some discussion going here, so i'm actually going to post this in SSMTT and HSMTT since the two have a pretty different crowd these days but both play a fair bit of live. Agree/disagree/omissions/additional thoughts?

stinger says

I think you make a lot of valid points in your post. I am primarily a live player, probably 90% of my play is live in Atlantic City. I am primarily a cash game player ,, but I cant ignore the value in a big tournament score ,so I play them on a limited basis based on the size of the field ,structure , etc.. I give you young internet players a lot of credit, you are for the most part fealess ,,and have no problem shoving all your chips in at any time..if you sense weakness.. I on the other hand , am a bit old shool, and prefer to let you guys pound on each other in the early stages of a tournament , and try to pick my spots when I have an edge.. I also am quite attuned to a lot of you internet guys and the super aggressive style of play you demonstrate,, and also use this to my advantage in setting my table image as a super tight nit in the early stages of an event... The when I 3 bet preflop , or resteal, or fire two or three barrels I can usually paint the picture that I am trying to create.
There are a few of my live friends (older guys) who find you young internet guys , a royal pain in the ass! However I look at it as just adjustments that need to be made... yes I have to open up my calling range when you guys shove,, I have to be very aware of stack sizes in relation to the blinds..I have to be careful in contolling the size of the pot with my marginal hands,, and yes you guys are easier to trap for all your chips than us old nits ,,you know your whole EV thing!! Sometimes it is not a bad thing to fold when you know you are beat!! The flip side of that coin is that yes you guys will sometimes ,or actually many times accummulate chips at a rapid rate... But in accummulating those chips your fluctuation and swings are also evident.. I guess what I am trying to say is poker is still no matter how much math and EV you incorporate in your game,,and you need to have a good sense of those tools ... But,, it is still a game of reads ,,and feel ,, and creating a table image that is opposite of your play.. and then adjusting to the play at your particular table ,,at that particular time.. Once again, I am not a big internet player,,so my perspective is mostly live,, but sitting across from a player for a few hours live , and watching his betting pattterns ,his demeanor when he puts his chips in the pot,,, his breathing ,,these are all tools that in my arsenal highly outweigh some of the math,,and the other principles a lot of you internet guys use ..
I am not saying your way is better ,,or my way is better ,,but I think to be successful live you need to use some of the old school methods ,and combine them with your vast internet experience ,, and then finally the most important thing of all ,,especially in tournament play is hope that you run like god down the stretch...

11/28/07

lakeoffire says

When I started playing poker I was a more" trappy" player but as I got better aggression seemed to take over. I hit people with the hammer constantly and it worked because I didn't get credit for a hand. I noticed I wasn't getting paid as often as I would like. I started letting people catch up (hopefully not too much) and let them think they had the best hand or bluff me. It just feels wrong when a ugly turn hits but they don't always hit the draw and I will fold if they push if I think they really caught. My point is really mix up your play. They are so used to me playing aggro the "trappy" play catches them completely off guard and then they are afraid of my call and my raise in crucial pots. Good post, Bond.

11/28/07

EdmondDantes says

I obviously have less tournament experience than most of the guys posting here, but I would offer the following observations of live tournament play. No particular order here...

1) It's amazing to me the hands guys bet and play out of position or multi-way. You say we should tighten up to guys betting in multi-way pots. I think live players consistently overvalue their hands OOP and multi-way; I'm usually shocked at how thin guys play OOP. I think it's CRITICAL to observe the types of hands guys are raising with and betting OOP and adjust accordingly.

2) The min-raise doesn't mean the same live that it does online. A guy min-raises me online and sirens go off. Live, it's cause for skepticism. A corollary of sorts is that live players slow play monsters. The check/call, check/call, lead is a set or better every time.

3) Most guys play WAY too tight when short and are ridiculous on the bubble, much more so than online. Live bubble play when guys have invested 15-20 hours in a decent buy-in tournament? Ha! They'll even be commenting on how tight everyone is and what hands they'll play. And they mean it.

4) Re: image. Live, guys will peg you for a certain style of play and put you on hands that are not even close to reality. Capitalize on it.

5) Pot odds. Most live players have no idea whatsoever how much is in the pot or how deep opponents are. None. And they rarely count the antes when thinking about their pre-flop bet amount and calling odds.

6) Live tournament players are indeed inconsistent and impulsive (aka spewy).

7) The typical 3-bet live is a real hand and respected by players. Ergo...3-bet more often.

8) Your sense of stack sizes and implications for strategy is a huge advantage. Capitalize on that.

9) The squeeze is under-utilized.

10) You have time live...use it. Most people don't because other players are staring at them.

11) When their hands shake and they will, act accordingly.

12) The overwhelming willingness to take a multi-way chop is probably something to capitalize on. I consistently see 6-10-way chops. When do you EVER see that online?

11/29/07

ca02 says

Many live players have a hard time gauging the pot size and how much chips their opponents have. Because of this, one can tend to put in smaller bets as bluffs especially multi street.

I think it is important to switch gears more often live to confuse opponents from getting a good read on you. If you want to 3 bet light preflop, i suggest doing it in bursts then tighten up for awhile, then start up again.

11/29/07

Pechorin says

This is an awesome blog post and I look forward to using this in Vegas for the 5 diamond. I have to say, though, that instead of calling lighter in position, when the stacks are big (100 BB+, I suppose) you really need to be 3-betting or raising lighter in position against the typical live player. You make money in these spots precisely because they do not understand position; they will be forced into tougher decisions with their marginal holdings. Just letting position work for you is super valuable, especially given that you can easily fold to their pf 4-bet (or call and crack their AA-KK).

And, 3-betting works against the two most frequently encountered types of live donks: against stations, you get to build a bigger pot sooner, so when you bet for value postflop, you can bet bigger. If they're the kind of donks who call light and then fold too much later on, you win a bigger pot sans showdown when you force them to fold. Finally, against the worst of the worst, you really need to isolate. Losing chips to a retard is no big deal: you're more likely to get them back than you are from a good player (or even a nit). Winning chips from a retard is a big deal for the same reason: you get those chips before one of the other good players has an opportunity to do so.

I mean, maybe I am just too used to 6m ftp cash games where seemingly every pot is 3bet pre, but I just think that live players are too overwhelmingly likely to make mistakes (like playing marginal/speculative OOP) to pass up the raising edge. Also, having played so much online cash, I'm confident that I can play better in raised/3bet pots than they will; consequently, I am often much less used to multiway or limped pots. So, I guess it just plays to my strength all around.

12/04/07

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