The blog entry I made about the poker players around me was polite and complimentary, and I’d really hate to get in the habit of that. Today I’d like to put down a list of name players I’ve run into; how they play, what kid of personality they are, and any other anecdotes from my experiences with them.

Scotty Nguyen: Scotty is just the most fun you’ll ever have at the table. He’s pretty much the best ambassador for poker ever. Highly outgoing, friendly, and often drunk with a laugh that can be heard for miles. I used to think Scotty was the ultimate poker playing machine until I actually played him. Unfortunately, Scotty has absolutely atrocious pre flop leaks and tends to make his raise size based on the strength of his hand with way too much consistency. He also slow plays in some pretty absurd spots, which I found out the hard way. Still, of all the pros I’ve played with, Scotty is my favorite to see across the table.

Phil Gordon: Over at 2+2 Phil Gordon is considered the anti Christ. When I played with him in a WSOP prelim event I ended up being seated directly on his left. We struck up a conversation about my suit and then about Australia, and he seemed like a really nice guy who was perhaps misunderstood. Then he made a mistake where he flat called a crazy aggressive guys raise, I shoved as a squeeze knowing the psycho would isolate and Phil would fold. I showed up with AJ, the psycho with QJ, and Phil had folded AQ, which would have won. Phil lost his shit. “You guys are crazy! That’s just stupid! That’s suicidal! What are you doing?!?!?!” Phil spent the next 45 minutes complaining about this almost nonstop, until online player ‘Mr.Timcaum’ sitting across the table finally said “Are you STILL complaining about that hand Phil!?” When he busted out he asked if he could have email to invite me to his 4th of July party, which I gave him. I never got the invite. Opportunity to get drunk for free and behave like asshole; lost.

Chris Moneymaker: Chris just looks exhausted. When playing with him I just get the sense that he’s a little over it all. I watched him stack off to Pearljammer in the most “LOL I MUST NOT FOLD ACES EVEN THOUGH HE OBVIOUSLY HAS IT!” spot ever. I remember seeing him wander around Star City casino by himself in Sydney back in December late at night. I kind of wanted to go bug him and be like “Wow! Chris Moneymaker! You made all this possible!” but I decided to let him be.

Amnon Fillipi: Or however you spell it, I’m sure as hell not bothering to look it up. Amnon seems to think he can play 75% of hands in hold’em, no matter his position, the amount of the reraise, who the player is, or what the stack depths are. Folding is a sin, and Amnon is a pious man.

Ted Forrest: I used to think Forrest was a very good player since he’d been around for over a decade and seemed to do real well at tournaments. Then I played with him in the WSOP 5k 6 max event. I still think he’s a… very nice guy. Forrest tends to call way too much pre flop and make way too many spewy bluffs post flop.

Erik Seidel: I remember almost nothing about playing with Seidel in regards to his playing style. I remember him being a very polite and quiet man, who I witnessed play some hand poorly and then watched in amazement as the guy he sucked out viciously berated him. How do you berate Erik Seidel?

Kathy Leibert: I played with Kathy in some such hold’em event in last years WSOP. I remember she played this absolutely retarded hand where she bet everything but one green 25 chip, which the other guy thought was an all in, which she insisted it wasn’t, which he questioned as to the purpose, which she took super fucking personally and resulted in the whole table arguing and the floor getting called while I stood above the table rambling “Jesus Christ live poker is so fucking stupid, this is just ridiculous” to anyone who’d listen to me.

Kenna James: A super nice guy who is fun to have on the table if you don’t mind the feeling that someone turned a radio to max volume then threw it in the middle of the table to sit there and insisted nobody turn it off. I only played limit with Kenna, and his limit game was way too loose and pretty disastrous, but then so is mine.

Phil Hellmuth: I played with Phil the day after he won his 11th bracelet. He was super smug and happy, and walked around the table introducing himself to each player with a hand shake with a big grin on his face. He then proceeded to play the most limp/call/fold happy poker I’ve ever seen. I’ve criticized Phil’s play a lot, and having played with him he didn’t do anything to change that image. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’d sooner light my cigars with 100 dollar bills than back Hellmuth in a 20 dollar tournament online.

Jon-Robert Bellande: Massive value in the majority of poker tournaments. There’s a reason there’s a ton of rumors about this guy being broke.

Joe Hachem: Last I put in serious hours in a tournament with Hachem he played better than I thought he would. His pre flop game at mid sized stacks was pretty solid, and he was capable of aggressive pre flop 3 bet/folds. Still, if you watch some of his footage on TV he has the tendency to see too many flops out of position and make the most hilariously obvious value bets. Joe is a real nice guy in real life and handles the celebrity factor very well. I’ve been talking to him a few times in Australia and random people will come up and blurt “Hey wow you’re that poker guy arentchya!?” and he’s always been receptive. He has the strange habit of talking like he runs bad, which I think we all know can’t be true.

Jeff Lisandro: Is a pretty quiet guy on the table. He pulled the most absurd float out of position against me with Q high, but then didn’t even bluff at it after I checked back the turn and the river blanked. He has the tendency to do a lot of acting with his big hands and like so many of the other live pros I’ve mentioned plays way too loose out of position. People have the most amazing tendency to just throw chips at him like the fucking things were on fire.

Evelyn Ng: Semi-berated me when I moved all in with QQ, she called, and I said “I have a pair” about half a second before I tabled my queens. She claimed it was kind of a slowroll, and I later claimed that she was kind of a bitch. Then I played with her again in another tournament and she gave me a free cookie from the bag she had with her, so my opinion of her has changed. When I played with her I was so terrible I have zero business describing the quality of her play and I really don’t remember it.

Barry Greenstein: Seemed to play very well when I played with him in the WSOP 5k mixed event, outside one limit hand that he played awful preflop that he later won. The guy who ran the second nuts into his nuts as a result of the hand spent the next 5 minutes berating Barry, who didn’t come anywhere close to losing his cool.

David Grey: The worlds single biggest nit. I’m told he once raised kings pre flop. He was likely drunk.

Hevad Khan: Is one of the nicest and most modest guys I’ve met in poker. All anyone talks to him about is how different he is in person compared to his TV persona. I played with him only briefly, and he tried to spew into Adanthar but ended up sucking out in one hand, but other than that his game seemed solid.

Chad Brown: Actually seemed like a nice guy when I played with him, and not bad at poker either. I know he’s kind of a psycho given the Aaronbeen incident (Aaronbeen told his girlfriend Vanessa Russo she played a hand terrible after she called some guy an idiot on the table and Brown lost his shit and threatened to kick his ass in the hallway of the Rio) so I guess he remembered his medication that morning.

Shannon Elizabeth: An evil bitch and a horrible poker player. That’s about all.

Lee Nelson: The best live tournament pro I’ve seen in action. He’s very aggressive, fully understands ranges, and knows how to adjust to live players expectations really well. He’s also as classy as they come in the poker industry. One amusing detail about Lee is that he won’t play any poker in the United States despite originally being an American (he now lives in New Zealand.)

Jeff Shulman: I remember him getting a ton of chips in a NL tournament then spewing them off in horrible fashion, though I don’t remember any specific hands. More amusing though is that I remember Brandon Adams coming up to him before Brandon had ever done anything in the poker world with a book in his hand. He reached it out to offer to Jeff, who looked at him confused
”What’s this?”
”It’s a book. It’s for you. Let me know what you think.”
Brandon had written a poker novel about his experiences and politely handed it to Jeff, then walked off. When Jeff later busted his book was sitting on the floor and as he stood up to leave the player next to him picked it up and said “Don’t you want your book?”
”Psssh, no!” he replied and walked off. The other guy kept it.

Humberto Brenes: A massive nit who bases the size of his raise on the strength of his hand. He spent his time singing whatever Spanish music he had on his CD player into my right ear while he folded hand after hand after…

Dave ‘Devilfish’ Ulliott: Is pretty much an asshole who spends 100% of his free time scrounging around the casinos for women to hit on in the sleaziest manner possible. He has the subtlety and charm of a massive fart at a formal dinner.

Roland De Wolfe: I didn’t get to see him play much but I got to watch him berate Kwob20 after he sucked out with a flush draw that he check shoved the flop with in a totally standard spot during a Bellagio $2,500 event (outside Kwob’s terrible pre flop call, but the flop was standard.)

Toto Leonidas: Seems to think you can bluff people in limit. Every hand. For those of you who haven’t played limit, that’s throwing money away faster than betting on Gary Coleman vs Mike Tyson at even money.


That’s all I can remember for now. Hopefully they’ll be some more good ones after this trip, which has changed matter of fact. It turns out going to LAPT Costa Rica was a logistical nightmare, so I’ve replaced it with WPT Barcelona. I’m finishing the booking tomorrow morning with the travel agency and the new (and likely final, no seriously this time) itinerary looks like this:
April 30, leave Melbourne to Venice. Stopovers in Bangkok and Frankfurt.
May 3-10, Party Poker Million Cruise.
May 11 depart Venice for Paris, stopover in Zurich.
May 11-19 Grand Prix de Paris
May 19 depart Paris for Barcelona, stopover in Zurich.
May 19-28 WPT Barcelona
May 28 depart Barcelona for Las Vegas, stopover in Philadelphia
May 28-June 27 WSOP of poker
June 27 depart Las Vegas for Milwaukee
June 27-30 see friends and family in Wisconsin
June 30 depart Milwaukee for Las Vegas
June 30-July 18 WSOP and Bellagio Cup III
July 18 depart Las Vegas for Fresno
July 18-21 Hang out in Fresno and bother Kyle at work in his cardroom
July 21 depart Fresno for Melbourne, stopovers in LA and Sydney
July 23 Arrive Melbourne Australia. Kill self.

Anonymous says

You forgot something:

July 24: finally out of make up!

04/10/08

:-O OopsIsaidIT (Anonymous) says

Honestly Bond...I enjoy reading most of your posts...you write well...but you've basically just named half of the known poker world and claimed that 90% of them are awful/spewy/dont understand this or that....what have you proven? a few 5 figure scores in online poker?? Please don't claim people are bad, when you simply aren't on 1/2 this lists level in poker...nd considering your talking about LIVE poker...haven't you put your friend Timax in the hole something in the area of 100,000$? "Before you start pointing figers, make sure your hands are clean" ;-)

04/11/08

Bond18 says

Oops,

I have plenty of good things to say about peoples game if they play well. I compliment the game of numerous people on this list like Hachem, Nelson, Greenstein, Brown, and Kahn and don't even mention the play of others. Also, everything I've said in there is true and I can give numerous examples. It's not my fault live players have so many leaks. Not like I don't have them as well, but some of the things these people fail at are the most basic and fundamental elements of poker. If you really want to be results oriented because I'm down over a sample of ~100 live tournaments that's fine, but pretending the live poker game is tougher than high stakes online MTT's is pretty ridiculous.

04/11/08

Anonymous says

This is the best blog post I've ever read, please share more as you meet more name players.

04/11/08

harlem (Anonymous) says

I've said it before and will say once again, Bond can write some good shit

04/11/08

Anonymous says

Hilarious post :)

I see you'll make two stop overs in Zurich. Guess you'll only be at the airport. Too bad, you're missing something there ;)

04/14/08

Anonymous says

Why is Shannon Elizabeth an evil bitch? Given that she's one of the very few attactive people in poker, I always had high hopes for her...

04/14/08

Bond18 says

Yea I really wish I had time to see Zurich, I hear it's stunning.

Shannon is a bitch because she freaks out every time she loses. I moved in on her with a semi bluff at the Bellagio and got there on her two pair and she flipped the fuck out, berated me, then went around the Bellagio poker room telling people how terrible I play. I didn't handle it well at the time and lost my cool about it and eventually realized that's just petty.

Then she came down to Australia, and when she lost went off at different players and at one point walked out of a tournament because she had such a temper tantrum.

04/16/08

Anonymous says

Hi,

While your opinion seems to be in the minority most of the time, you are 100% correct on this topic, at least based on my own personal experience. A lot of live pros are BAD BAD BAD, and only a scant percentage of players are aware of this.

04/17/08

Anonymous says

Hey Bond,

Although I agree with many of your general points, as a primarily live player I feel that I need to give you some kind of a "devil's advocate" retort. What even the best online players seem to have trouble understanding is that live poker has many, many unique elements and skills that don't apply so much online that need to be considered before passing such blanket judgment. Anyway, of those players you mentioned here's my piece on those who I've had significant experience playing against.

Scotty Nguyen: Scotty does have some big leaks preflop, but as previously mentioned, almost nobody exploits them. He knows who plays fit or fold and who doesn't and has a lot of his weaker opponents figured out, so his spewy preflop game is usually profitable for him. Who cares if he limp/calls out of position against someone who doesn't know how to use their positional advantage. His sick slowplaying - that's an example of how live players try to reduce their volatility, even if it means giving up value. With deep stacks and horrendously weak fields, live pros try not to play big pots while they're even remotely vulnerable. Scotty knows how to get chips consistently in low risk situations. He doesn't mind letting opponents get there if he can lose the minimum when they do. It's small ball - agree with it or not, you need to give it some merit.

Amnon Fillipi: Stud specialist, admitted hold em donkey. I'd back him in almost any stud game, knowing for sure I have the best of it.

Ted Forrest: He's professor backwards. He has a completely unique approach to the game and with his experience and abilities he manages to find value in spots most players could only dream of. He also has rock solid knowledge of the fundamentals - "know the rules so you can break them" kind of thing. He seems spewy, but believe me, everything he does is meticulously planned. He's also been one of the biggest and most consistent winners in the cash games for more then ten years.

Phil Hellmuth: The metagame master. You said "limp/call/fold happy." I say limp/call/fold/read weak opponents perfectly postflop/induce huge errors by misleading players with his bet sizing/literally manipulating how his opponents playing against him-happy poker. He's like a chess player... looking 20 moves ahead. I wouldn't back him online either, but I'd sure as fuck back him live. He's the best in the world at manipulating and exploiting weak opponents. He can bleed an amateur out of every chip better then anyone, especially better then a game theoretically optimal super computer.

Joe Hachem: Leaks aren't leaks if nobody exploits them.

Jeff Lisandro: This critique is so tasteless and unfair. Jeff clearly had a specific read on this exact situation and then decided to abandon ship as the hand developed. Jeff has masterful understanding of table dynamics and how to get max value out of most situations.

Humberto Brenes: As I've said before, there's nothing wrong with sizing your raises based on the strength of your hand if you're playing opponents whom you know will no exploit it. He adapts right if the competition is on to him. He also gets the job done.

That's about it. Before boldly claiming that "live players are bad," try to give some merits to the fact that the live game simply has different dynamics. Live players are more concerned with exploiting particular opponents and maneuvering through read dependent situations then they are with plugging leaks. Manipulating and exploiting weak fields is also a much bigger part of the game, and includes certain skills that are completely obsolete online. Please, before making absolute statements, consider the fact that live poker is much more in tuned to playing your opponents particular proclivities and finding value in unique situations then it is making shoddy attempts at quantifying what playing is +EV then what isn't. It's a more human game, and requires understanding of the human element.

04/18/08

Bond18 says

Anon,

Nice post, so let's get more in depth.

Scotty Nguyen: When I played with him half the table was young and TAGish, so I don't give him a pass for his pre flop bet sizing tells. Also, reducing variance is all nice and well BUT NOT WHEN IT MEANS REDUCING EQUITY. Especially if we assume Scotty is wealthy and the variance shouldn't hurt him.

Ted Forrest: I could believe most of that, but planned spew is still spew.

Hellmuth: Yes, I fully agree nobody crushes bad players like Phil Hellmuth. I'd take any of his action in a live tournament as long as it's NLH and not the Bellagio 25k where I doubt there's enough donks for him to be profitable.

Jeff Lisandro: How is my using a real example unfair? I wish I still had the hand written down but it went something like:
I raise button QhTh Jeff calls BB we're 100ish BB's deep.
Flop: 9 6 5 two hearts on diamond.
He checks I bet he calls.
Turn black 5 he checks I check.
River offsuit blank (like a 2?) he checks I check he tables QdTd. Uh?

Humberto Brenes: We played in the 5k mixed limit/no limit event at the WSOP. There was like one or two unknowns on the whole table and everyone else was either live pro or online pro. Pretty much everyone on the table was watching stuff like raise sizes.

I never made any absolute statements like "live players are bad" but I'll freely say they are worse. There are numerous good live pros, many of whom I've addressed here, but it remains my belief that 5-10 years from now they'll be phased out if they don't adapt.

04/25/08

Anonymous says

Sorry for the harsh tone - I just think you're failing to acknowledge the specific merits live players have that make them play profitably. To that end I won't say online players are better live. I firmly believe that live pros are better at playing in live tournaments for the reasons mentioned, and that this edge will exist until online players start to get better at these live-specific elements. As for your exact replies,

Scotty: Yes, I believe that reducing volatility is very much worth reducing equity in specific hands, as being eliminated from a tournament bring your equity down to ZERO. I think your equity in an entire tournament will be much higher if you take measures to avoid getting felted, even if you settle for less equity in any given hand. It's the whole idea of smallball. There's no reason to maximize value in every hand if you can instead get a reasonable amount of value and have a much higher chance of survival. I'll happily reduce my equity any day knowing that my equity on the bubble will be MASSIVE and that being around when that happens is worth losing value early in the tournament. That's why alot of live players believe in passing small edges early.

Ted: What might be spew for you or me may not be spew for Ted Forrest for reasons neither of us could possibly understand. There's no right way to play poker, and I'm willing to accept that Ted has a really advanced method, and that he knows damn that how easy he looks to exploit, and is just setting up everyone who tries to exploit him for the big kill.

Hellmuth: While I wouldn't raise/fold half my stack with king 6 offsuite, you gotta admit how cool it would be to have an entire table re-raising you light even when you appear pot committed because they think they have FE. He'll double up alot more with his strong hands, while building his metagame. Nough said.

Jeff:Knowing Jeff as well as I do (I know him very well), I'd figure he probably floated you thinking he could take it down if a scare card comes. Scare card never came so he gave up. What could he represent with that turn or river? He probably initially thought that are straight card, a heart, a queen or a ten is a win. Sound logic to me.

I can't say anything more about Humberto - you're probably right, I don't really know him that well. He just seemed solid when I played with him.

I'll just sum up my point by saying this: If you are who I think you are, I've played with you live for a few hours. While I respected your play and generally tried to avoid calling your raises in position with marginal hands (that's a huge compliment from me), I've seen you play hands in ways that appeared to me like you completely misses a villain advertising what he has, or an obvious tell or display of strength or weakness, just because these reads are ones you almost never encounter online and you clearly aren't experienced enough live to notice them. To that end, while you played while, I think you missed value in some spots where a good live player would pounce and probably win someone's stack. These aren't spots that happen online, but it's these specific live skills that give live players an edge in big live donkaments that online players don't seem to understand.

06/03/08

Anonymous says

Where are you from in WI?

07/27/08

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